Christian Conservative vs. Bush
By Michael Miller and Warren Gammel, Nov 28, 2003
From: Michael Miller
[a_christian_conservative@yahoo.com]
Date: November 26, 2003
To:
Editors@mikehersh.com
Re: Why I Like and Support Howard Dean.
Replies from Warren Gammel, who wrote: "Why I Like and Support Howard Dean"
Miller: You start off with the following: "To all my fellow brothers and sisters in the Bush-Cheney Bomb & Bankrupt Cheap-Labor-Conservative Resistance Movement (BCBBCLCRM)"
As a Christian conservative I reject this frivolous notion that the
Bush/Cheney Administration is remotely conservative. When you start referencing
to "cheap labor," I take it that you in part might be meaning the influx of
illegal Mexican immigrants that will work for extremely low wages. I oppose Bush
completely on the issue of illegal immigration from
Gammel: My definition of cheap labor conservatives are all the corporations who are downsizing, moving jobs overseas, eroding employee benefits and destroying unions. Our open Swiss cheese borders do not help matters any either.
Miller: You said, "One of the reasons I like Howard Dean is because of my liberal Christian values. Dean does not toot his religious horn and neither do I. I respect those who quietly practice their Christian values and ethics over those who only talk the talk or try to impress you with their claims of righteousness."
To be perfectly honest, I find the notion of a political liberal being able conversely claim to be of the Christian Faith. "Liberal Christian Values" sounds like some sort of bastardization of the religious faith with political correctness and defilement. Dean obviously lacks any real religious conviction as evidenced by his immoral, un-American political ideals. You share Dean's ideals.
Gammel: When I read my Bible I read the lines printed in red which are the words actually spoken by Jesus. By almost any definition of the word, Jesus was a liberal. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the majority of Christians are not extremist fundamentalists.
Miller: You are wrong to say that those who actually stand up for their religious values and preach are people that are only trying to "impress." Truth be known, Dean doesn't value religion and it is more of a cultural or community gathering once a week. I find it hypocritical of you to spout all of this political conviction while pretending that Christianity has to stay bottled up and hidden from public view.
Gammel: You're entitled to your own opinions, but much of what I see nowadays is grandstanding and showboating. It's always been a small group of extremists that make the most noise and get the most attention. That does not necessarily mean that their narrow views represent or reflect the opinions of the majority of Americans who profess to be Christians.
Miller: You said, "Howard Dean doesn't tout his faith as a selling point, which is refreshing in today's political arena and something I highly respect. I believe Dean is a real Christian just as much as I believe Bush is a phony Christian. Nearly every politician who makes a great display of their religious faith is invariably also seriously hypocritical."
Howard Dean doesn't have any strong Christian values and he'd rather preach how much he supports the Abortion Holocaust, to name one example. Saying Dean is a "real Christian" is about as dumb as claiming Clinton had the "most ethical Administration in history."
Gammel: You apparently have strong views on abortion. Dr. Dean's recent statements on abortion reflect a medical doctor's perspective and concern for the safety of the mother. The current legislation does not take into account what the emergency room doctor or surgeon has to consider in a life or death situation when deciding to save the baby or the mother in an emergency situation.
As it stands now, the attending doctor may decide to do nothing rather than risk lawsuits or jail time. As consequence, both baby and mother may die when it may have been possible to save one or the other or even both. The language of the new legislation is too vaguely worded for doctors who lay their license on the line every time they interact with a patient. All the doctors hate this new legislation. Litigation lawyers are probably drooling at lips over it.
Miller: I happen to agree that Bush is a phony Christian. My web page - A Christian Conservative/Bush-pro-Islam. The only thing hypocritical is your quaint way of sidelining the Christian Faith while cowardly disguising your motives.
You said: "[You] appreciate Dr. Dean's recent statement on abortion with which [you] completely concur:"
[Quoting Howard Dean] "As a physician, I am outraged that the Senate has decided it is qualified to practice medicine. There is no such thing as 'partial birth abortion' in medical literature. But there are times when a doctor is called upon to perform a late term abortion to save a woman's life or protect her from serious injury. Today the Senate took a step toward making it a crime for a doctor to perform such medically necessary procedures. This bill will chill the practice of medicine and endanger the lives of countless women."
Like I said, murdering unborn babies must be one of those "liberal Christian Values" that you were harping on, but more to the point this conviction is okay, but expressing Christian Values is some sort of speech crime.
Gammel: You're projecting ad hominem accusations. I don't think anyone is for abortion. I'm certainly not. I believe they should only be used as a last resort and avoided whenever possible. However I do not believe government should be legislating medical procedures. I think it would be much better to reframe this whole controversy into a question of how do we reduce unwanted pregnancies? Reducing unwanted pregnancies will reduce the need for abortions. That is the direction we really need to be heading in, in my opinion.
Miller: I'd like to refute Dean by pointing out that Abortion isn't a medical procedure. It is a form of homicide intent on unnaturally killing an unborn baby simply because of the promiscuous sexual lifestyles that accompany those "liberal Christian values." It is as simple as destroying a human life because a woman doesn't want to bear the child.
Gammel: Again, why don't we see what we can do to reduce the numbers of unwanted pregnancies? But I digress.
Miller: To correct Dean again, partial-birth Abortion is homicidal act whereby the baby is partially delivered, perhaps stabbed in the back of the head with scissors and the brains are suctioned out collapsing the skull. There isn't any case where this was done to save the life of a woman and the whole purpose is once again the destruction of the baby. Furthermore, it should be a capital crime punishable by death. Claiming this sort of crime is paralleled with practicing medicine is ludicrous.
You said: "I'm glad to see Dr. Dean is speaking up on this controversial issue and he is taking an intelligent sensible approach. Dr. Dean brought clarity to the whole issue in a couple of sentences, while the right-wingers usually muck it all up with irrational emotional craziness. I expect Dr. Dean will bring similar intelligent common sense solutions to heath care reform as our president. That's one of my primary reasons for supporting Howard Dean. I like the fact that both he and his wife are physicians. That's what initially attracted me to Howard Dean. I believe he has the ability to tackle complex problems and situations and deal with them in a well thought out intelligent manner."
What is intelligent about wanting to claim the mass murder of unborn babies and the particularly gross acts of homicide like partial-birth Abortion can be categorized as "practicing medicine?" Sensible? Are you serious? More like ridiculous! I've given you clarity while Dean says he was once a doctor therefore he can deceptively peg such a grotesque form of homicide into a profession intent on healing and preserving life.
The emotional craziness, whatever that is supposed to mean, comes more from zealous and mindless followers like you. You have the audacity to claim that Dean wanting the Federal Government to engage in the most egregious violation of the U. S. Constitution and establish a Federal takeover and establishment of a state-run monopoly with regard to healthcare equals "intelligent common sense solutions to healthcare reform." There is a prime example of emotional craziness.
What I find frightening is your lack of thought. Dean says something and you immediately describe it as "common sense" or "intelligent." You are a robotic supporter and you couldn't intelligently debate the Abortion issue or the government taking over the entire healthcare industry.
Gammel: Say whatever you like. We have an abortion clinic here in Ocala Florida and the "pro-life" folks are there every day 7 days a week, rain or shine picketing. I have spoken with many of them.
I have never worked in any abortion clinics or for any abortion doctors. I'm a Registered Nurse by profession who has helped deliver my share of babies over my lifetime. But from your perspective, I'm totally uniformed? What are your credentials, sir?
Miller: You said, "For many months Howard Dean has been under continuous attack from both the right and the left as they try to peg him with various derogatory labels. He's another McGovern, or he's another Nixon, or he's too far left or he's too far right. Well if Dean is another McGovern or another Nixon, what does that make George W. Bush? Bush is so far to the right that anyone else by comparison is to the left. But none of these comparisons or labels adequately define Howard Dean who is far too complex to be so simplistically characterized. I find most people who actually listen to Dean speak (rather than just listening to the all the rhetoric swirling around about him) like what Howard has to say on the issues."
George W. Bush has given us 100 new government programs, the largest expansion of the welfare state in over 40 years, he continues gun control policies, he flip-flopped on federal funding for oversea Abortion, he let Ted Kennedy write his education bill, etc., etc. To claim this is "to the right" is not only a big lie; it is just insulting and stupid. If Howard Dean is solidly to the Left of this left wing agenda, then by all means it is fair to say he's too far left!
Gammel: I'll let others argue and debate that. We all have our own personal perceptions, I have stated mine and now you have stated yours.
Miller: To be continued.
Gammel: Please I hope not.
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